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All Terrain Tyre Comparisons

  • Andy2640
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03 Mar 2019 15:59 #204057 by Andy2640
Replied by Andy2640 on topic All Terrain Tyre Comparisons
I'm not sure whether Toyo Open country AT2 is the same as the toyo AT+ (Plus). On TOYO website they appear as AT+.

On youtube the AT2 have been around since 2015, so im thinking the AT+ is a very new Toyo product.

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  • Guy 2
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03 Mar 2019 16:12 #204058 by Guy 2
Replied by Guy 2 on topic All Terrain Tyre Comparisons
Yes, I think the 'asymmetric' pattern (assuming Toyo are describing their own product correctly) would be a problem for me.

I haven't found a review of the Toyo AT+ yet - or at least a serious one which isn't just pounding music and pretty pictures!

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03 Mar 2019 17:24 - 03 Mar 2019 17:30 #204061 by Guy 2
Replied by Guy 2 on topic All Terrain Tyre Comparisons
SUMMARY
As this is all getting a bit complicated, and at the risk of boring everyone rigid, I thought I would do an interim stock-take of ’where I am now’. Of course, my thoughts may or may not reflect your own views.

Some general (and fairly obvious) points:
• This discussion about All Terrain tyres is going to remain ‘a moving target’ a) because manufacturers are constantly introducing new products onto the global and UK markets, and b) because Forum members are potentially always updating the Forum with their own experiences.
• For all sorts of reasons ‘your experience’ is probably not going to be ‘my experience’ – although that doesn’t mean it’s not helpful.
• Personal priorities differ.

On the last of these points – my personal priorities for new Jimny tyres are first that they should perform as well as any AT can on wet tarmac, and secondly that they are at least ‘moderately’ resistant to chipping and punctures off-road. From a tyre construction point of view these priorities are in conflict. Such is Life.

I came to the Forum having already done a little reading about the on-road performance of AT tyres, and had come to the preliminary conclusion that Yokohama Geolandar G015s and Cooper AT3 Sports were two of the strongest contenders in the sizes most suitable for the Gen 4 Jimny (see my first post on this Topic). I haven’t completely changed this view – but I have modified it in the light of members’ comments.

What has been particularly useful is members’ experience ‘off-road’. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

To summarise:

1. I believe the general (but not necessarily universal) consensus is that there are two ‘Goldilocks’ sizes of tyre for the Gen 4 Jimny: 195/80 R15 and 215/75 R15.

2. If good road manners, including wet tarmac performance, are a priority then the Yokohama Geolandar G015 and, I still believe, the Cooper AT3 Sport, are in the frame for ‘best compromise AT tyre’ for the Jimny @ the 195/80 size. There may well be others but I haven’t found them on the UK market.

3. At the 215/75 size there is a rather wider range of contenders – but the good road manners for the G015 and the Cooper AT3 Sport still hold true.

4. For me, the issues then become strength and off-road ability. We have addressed the first - to some extent at least, but not the second (subject to comment No 7 below – which came up as I was reading different reviews).

5. The strongest option is undoubtedly a tyre with ‘Light Truck’ (LT) construction (thank you for that suggestion saxj). The only relevant LT I have found on the UK market is the Yokohama Geolandar G015 LT 215/75 R15 100/97S currently on offer at www.giga-tyres.co.uk and being sold by My Tyres and Tyres-guru amongst others. (Thanks for finding that Gadget.)

6. An ‘honourable alternative’ to this Light Truck tyre, from the point of view of strength at any rate, is the BF Goodrich KO2 – which has had a reputation for strength for some time (as well as, maybe, a reputation for some less attractive traits as well).

7. It appears the General Grabber AT3 is one of the more well-developed AT tyres on the market at the moment – and it is available in both Jimny ‘Goldilocks’ sizes. The priority for the Grabber appears to be off-road grip but, despite a modern compound and good sipes, its tread block design makes it harder for it to clear water on tarmac. (Please disagree with me here if you think I am wrong.)

8. On the new/relatively-new front both the Toyo AT+ (mentioned by Andy), and the Michelin Ltx Force (mentioned by cyberdriver from Australia), remain a bit of an unknown. Tom on this Forum, #welshjimny, has the Toyo AT+ so he may be able to update us in due course. The Ltx Force isn’t on the UK market in the relevant sizes as yet – and neither are the Firestone Destinations as used/ recommended by saxj.

So, what am I personally intending to do?

Well, I am still in two minds as to whether to go for ‘standard size’ 195/80, or upsize to 215/75. I know it doesn’t help others – but actually I don’t have to make a final decision until I receive word that ‘my Jimny’ has landed in the UK. This will probably be some months.

Lambert’s comment about unsprung mass, and Gadget’s remark that his 215/75 Geolandars have “blunted performance” to some extent, incline me towards the 195/80s.

On the other hand, if I were finally to go for 215/75s then, for me personally, I would want to maximise the off-road benefit of the larger tyres. saxj’s comments about LT tyres really being the ones to have for off-road, added to the fact that the only UK LT option comes with the Geolandars’ tarmac-friendly longitudinal rain channels, are both very persuasive. My guess is that Light Truck tyres, of any brand, will inevitably be heavier, have a tendency to vibrate more, be harder to balance, and the stiffer sidewalls will make the ride harsher and create more ‘bounce’ (like a pickup with an empty load bed). It is also possible that the steering and handling may be more of a handful. These are things to be investigated further.

I would, therefore, be very, very interested in any member’s on-road experience of LT rated 215/75 R15 tyres. I guess such experience, if any, is more likely to come from either South Africa or Australia where there may be more of a market for LT tyres in all sizes, but the general conditions will also be drier. So, any comments on wet road experiences on LTs might be difficult but would also be extremely helpful for the UK.

With all of these provisos I am probably going to end up with Geolandars, in one form or another.

Now, I reckon I’ve well and truly put ‘the noose round my neck’ – anyone want to give it a good yank…..?
Last edit: 03 Mar 2019 17:30 by Guy 2. Reason: Minor errors in naming tyres

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  • JimJimny
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03 Mar 2019 18:11 - 04 Mar 2019 08:26 #204062 by JimJimny
Replied by JimJimny on topic All Terrain Tyre Comparisons
I've been quietly following this thread with genuinely avid interest and I'm really grateful to everyone for sharing their thoughts and going into such good detail on this subject, so many thanks to you, Guy, and everyone else who has contributed, because I will definitely also be wanting to run ATs when my Gen4 arrives...

I had actually been thinking of possibly going for the BF Goodrich KO2 LT , being attracted by their B rating for wet grip and also their 'LT' designation, so I'm particularly interested in your slightly cryptic comment about those other "less attractive traits" you mentioned as well. Sorry if I've missed something there, but could you elaborate on what to be mindful of if going for them?

That's a great detailed write-up summary of your thoughts so far, many thanks for taking the time to do that.
Last edit: 04 Mar 2019 08:26 by JimJimny. Reason: correcting typos

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  • Andy2640
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03 Mar 2019 18:34 #204065 by Andy2640
Replied by Andy2640 on topic All Terrain Tyre Comparisons

Gadget wrote:

saxj wrote: I have had a couple of sets of Yokohama Geolander GO15's on A GV and on a Jimny. They perform well on road and off, but in the sizes for the Jimny and GV, they are not available in LT spec, so have the puncture resistance of a party balloon.


I have G015s in 215/75R15 and they're listed as being LT spec on the Yokohama website? Not sure what LT spec is mind you.


Thanks for your input Guy, great posts.

Dear Mr Gadget: When you say your lovely Geolanders have effected fuel consump.....and ride quality, may i ask to what degree?

Cheers fellas.

Andy.

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  • Lambert
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04 Mar 2019 05:31 #204080 by Lambert
Just for clarification. Asymmetrical tyres are not a problem. All it means is that the tyres has an inside and an outside when mounting it to the wheel, once correctly mounted it doesn't matter what position you put that wheel and tyre on the vehicle. Directional tyres are a problem as they have to rotate in the same direction as pairs so the left-hand side pair would be running backwards on the right hand side of the vehicle and vice versa. It is possible to swap them but it means demounting the tyres from the wheels and changing the direction bias of the tyre relative to the wheel it is mounted on. Possible certainly but expensive and time-consuming.

Asymmetrical tyres are the future. One half of the tread shifts vast amounts of water giving grip in the wet the other half has loads of rubber and sticks like glue on dry tarmac. Two tyres in one!

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04 Mar 2019 10:09 #204085 by 300bhpton

saxj wrote:
BFG's have a reputation for longevity, puncture resistance, gravel road use, and really crap wet weather performance. They also don't fair very well on sand, and don't grip very well on rock.

I'd have said the BFG's where more at home on sand and rock tbh, as that is what they are built for. Much of mainland USA is sand and rock unless you are East Coast.

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04 Mar 2019 10:23 #204086 by saxj
Replied by saxj on topic All Terrain Tyre Comparisons

300bhpton wrote:

saxj wrote:
BFG's have a reputation for longevity, puncture resistance, gravel road use, and really crap wet weather performance. They also don't fair very well on sand, and don't grip very well on rock.

I'd have said the BFG's where more at home on sand and rock tbh, as that is what they are built for. Much of mainland USA is sand and rock unless you are East Coast.


On sand e.g dunes, they don't flex very well and have a tendency to debead.
On steep rock I have noticed they tend to slip a lot more than other tyres - Jimny's with Firestone, Bridgestone and Yokohama

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  • Guy 2
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04 Mar 2019 14:29 #204102 by Guy 2
Replied by Guy 2 on topic All Terrain Tyre Comparisons
Thanks.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the BFG KO2s are good tyres - but from what I've read they are very strongly oriented to off-road rather than on-road. I understand the strong side walls give a more unforgiving ride (same as any LT?) and that people's actual experience with them is that they are not good on wet tarmac. Don't have an immediate reference for that, but it's 'out there' on the Web in a number of places. saxj on this thread has also mentioned that.

Where on Earth the Euro B rating for wet grip came from I just don't know. I can only repeat, it doesn't seem to be users' actual experience. Makes me a bit sceptical about all these tyre ratings, to be honest. Sooner go with what people have found in practice.

If you do ultimately go with the BFGs I shall be interested in your thoughts. Might have bought my own Geolandars by then - but there's always replacement tyres to think about!

Cheers - and hope your Gen 4 arrives soon.

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  • Guy 2
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04 Mar 2019 14:34 #204103 by Guy 2
Replied by Guy 2 on topic All Terrain Tyre Comparisons
Thanks for putting me straight on that Lambert. It was actually unidirectional tyres I had got confused with.

Andy, please take note - I was wrong!

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04 Mar 2019 15:36 #204107 by 300bhpton

Guy 2 wrote: Thanks.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the BFG KO2s are good tyres - but from what I've read they are very strongly oriented to off-road rather than on-road. I understand the strong side walls give a more unforgiving ride (same as any LT?) and that people's actual experience with them is that they are not good on wet tarmac. Don't have an immediate reference for that, but it's 'out there' on the Web in a number of places. saxj on this thread has also mentioned that.

Where on Earth the Euro B rating for wet grip came from I just don't know. I can only repeat, it doesn't seem to be users' actual experience. Makes me a bit sceptical about all these tyre ratings, to be honest. Sooner go with what people have found in practice.

If you do ultimately go with the BFGs I shall be interested in your thoughts. Might have bought my own Geolandars by then - but there's always replacement tyres to think about!

Cheers - and hope your Gen 4 arrives soon.

I think it depends on your expectations and intended use tbh.

The original BFG AT was IMO pretty dreadful in the wet. Part of this is the rubber goes hard after a few years. This is partly what makes them last a long time, but makes them very poor on wet tarmac.

The KO2 I've not actually run yet myself, but the tread has the inclusion of sipes, these should in theory make them much better on wet tarmacs than the previous ones. The tread is somewhat aggressive for an AT, but they are still pretty mild overall.

I'm not sure if they are available in a Jimny size, but my choice of AT tyre would be something like the Goodyear Duratrac. This is standard issue on many OEM vehicles and is a nice blend of on and off road performance.

Overall though, I tend to run MT's over AT's. A mild MT with sipes will often run almost as well as many AT's on the road, but perform much better in the mud and off road.

The new BFG KM03's looks very nice. My biggest gripe with BFG tyres in the UK at least is the cost of them. They are significantly more expensive than almost anything else. And while they should be good, I don't believe they are significantly better than many others.

I'm running Kumho MT51's on my Range Rover and tbh they are almost as quiet and comfortable as the road tyres that I took off it. But are so much better on lanes, fords and going across the fields.
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04 Mar 2019 16:25 #204108 by Gadget
Replied by Gadget on topic All Terrain Tyre Comparisons

Andy2640 wrote:
Dear Mr Gadget: When you say your lovely Geolanders have effected fuel consump.....and ride quality, may i ask to what degree?

Cheers fellas.

Andy.


Hi Andy, it's difficult for me to provide concrete evidence, as I only had the stock tyres fitted for 200 miles, however my perception is that acceleration isn't quite as sharp since moving to the heavier tyres and that fuel consumption is 2 or 3mpg down. Averaging under 34mpg at the moment, however there aren't many auto box can cars for me to compare against.

I don't think comfort has suffered. It was more jiggly immediately after fitting, as they'd set pressures 10psi too high. Seems fine now back at 26psi. I could probably drop to 23, but don't want to risk dropping mpg any further.

Really need a stock auto car to do a back to back test with.

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