Off-road situations where traction control is undesireable

Most Jimnys built between 2014 and 2018 have traction control function. It also appears to be a standard feature on the new Jimny 4 model.

However, I think that there are off-road situations where traction control is undesirable, and therefore it is useful to be able to turn TC off when desired (Jimnys 3 with TC provide that ability).

I provided a video in this wiki article which I believe shows an example of such a situation.

What are others's opinions on situations where TC would be undesirable?

P.S.: This topic is not Jimny-specific. It relates to any all-terrain vehicle with traction control. I remember a good example with Land Rover Discovery 2. Those had TC instead of central diff lock and they relied exclusively on TC. They performed soo "inadequately" in certain off road situations, that Land Rover later offered a central diff lock retrofit kit for owners who wished to to some proper all terrain driving.

With a Discovery 2 with TC and without central diff lock, I had to "storm up" a loose rocky uphill path just in order to keep "feeding" the TC with momentum and thus ravage the path and vehicle's underbody, instead of going moderately slowly and steadily with a "normal" 4WD vehicle.
If I went moderately slowly and steadily uphill such a path with Discovery 2 (like I would have in an old Defender for example), I usually stalled the Discovery 2 because TC "drowns" the engine.

Just wanted to ask the question as to which system you were discussing, as there are now several at play here.

Traction control is largely a road-biased system designed to reduce wheel-spinning when pulling away on tarmac. Generally very crude and not much help in off-road situations - many vehicles with a low-range transfer case disable the TC system in 4Lo.

ESP was originally a Daimler-provided system that can brake individual wheels to maintain stability in specific situations, made famous after the A-Class 'elk test'. It's been extended somewhat over the years, and my personal opinion is that there's a conflict between the ESP system in the new Jimny and Suzuki's camera-based Dual Sensor Brake Support system that was revealed at a recent press event.

And then there's Brake LSD, the system that can brake an individual spinning wheel in off-road situations so as to force torque to the remaining wheel on the same axle, thereby maintaining traction. I think it's best not to refer to these as 'traction control' as they are a separate system.

I generally have a very low opinion of BLSD systems as they usually require tons of wheel spin before they cut in, and then you've simply polished away any mechanical traction that you might have had. The Discovery is an excellent example as in a number of tests I can think of, they've been unable even to enter the testing ground and therefore were deselected by various authorities.

I remember testing the Jeep Cherokee KL back in 2014 where it proved completely unable to climb a modest muddy hill because the BLSD kept applying so much braking that it stalled the engine repeatedly.

Personally, my favourite system was Quadra-Drive with Vari-Lok axles from the '99 Jeep Grand Cherokee - a purely hydro-mechanical set-up that maintained traction in some incredible situations without any wheelspin. Sometimes needed a bit of weight in the back to get the best from it, though. Unfortunately it was abandoned in 2004 for the cheaper E-LSD brake system.

I was actually quite impressed by the BLSD in the new Jimny as it was capable of operating even at engine tick-over speeds, and did so without applying excessive braking force. I can think of ways to improve it, of course.

Some comments on the ESC / Brake LSD System (TC) on the 4th Gen
1. TC cannot be turned off. Holding the ESC button in while in 4 Low results in the Hill hold function being turned off.
2. If you turn off ESC, it reenables itself over 40kph (only 4H and 2H)
3. TC works in 4H

In the video shown in the Wiki, a 3rd Gen Jimny (pre-brake LSD) won't get even a third of the way up that hill at the same speed that I approached it at. Significantly more momentum is required.

Quoted from the wiki "Watch this video from time point 2:55 onward to see a situation where traction control actually hinders the momentum and thus progress"

This statement is incorrect - TC didn't hinder progress, there was just no traction available. The TC alternately locked the wheels, but there was no grip to be had. Rolling back to half way down the slope and choosing a different line, allowed for more traction (Note that from where I rolled back to, a 3rd gen Jimny without TC would just dig holes).

TC is undesirable when you want to have fun sliding around in the mud. We found, much to my amusement, that my non-TC Jimny can lap a dirt oval faster than a 270hp Rangerover simply because the Jimny can get sideways and hold a slide without the computer saying no. The Rangerover is fast until you throw it into a corner. When the computers intervene and it's about as much fun as a mobility scooter.

Busta wrote: TC is undesirable when you want to have fun sliding around in the mud. We found, much to my amusement, that my non-TC Jimny can lap a dirt oval faster than a 270hp Rangerover simply because the Jimny can get sideways and hold a slide without the computer saying no. The Rangerover is fast until you throw it into a corner. When the computers intervene and it's about as much fun as a mobility scooter.

The Jimny's TC is set to work in the 1500 to 2500 rpm range, so you can defeat it by revving it, but only in low range. In high range, as soon add one of the wheels exceeds 40kph, ESC reengages. This isn't really an issue as we found you can reach 100kph in 4L

I would still like to know if anyone has experienced situations where the Jimny's traction control has prevented completion of an obstacle. I have witnessed it with a Defender, but have yet to see a situation where an open diff Jimny can do an obstacle where a TC equipped one can't.

Have not tried the Suzuki system, but I have some experience with other cars.

Pulling an Ifor Williams Horse trailer at 1100kg up a grassy hill. with same added weight and same conditions:

2006 VW T5 4 motion, I had to push the throttle hard to get up and use some wheel spin to get mud out of the tires. but the car got up easy with the trailer.

2010 Mitsubishi Montero diesel. the 4x4 system and or the TC limited the amount of revs to avoid wheel spin, so the car did not get enough throttle or power to get up the hill. did not get stuck of course, but i liked the VW where i could get it going much better. Could be there was a setting in the Mitsu 4x4 i could have chosen that would allow for more GO but i had just borrowed it to move the trailer so I didn't have the time.

Hoping the new Suzuki TC is more like a rally car, like the quattro, subaru or VW systems, and not like the Mitsubishi System.

I reserve the right to be an idiot and be allowed to give it too much revs myself.

Also tried a 2012 Amarok with all the electronic 4x4 stuff and it performs well but you will have to let the system work it's way and crawl along. Great to not get stuck and to get trough, but no real fun.

With you there on lockable diffs. With all three diffs on my Landcruiser 80 series locked and the tyres aired down to about 13 psi, there was not much it could not get through.